BARSOOM GAME DESIGN LOG
The following is a discussion held on CONSIMWORLD between James McCann, Dave Townsend and myself, plus some interested parties jumping in from time to time. Rather than let some good ideas fritter away, I'm compiling these in an archive that I can use for a reference later. One of the reason why great projects never get done is that nobody bothers to write anything down, and I hope I can change that with this BLOG.
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James McCann - Aug 4, 2004 9:13 am (#1405 Total: 1429)
Barsoom gaming
I have thought about doing a Barsoom game for some time. I nearly bought John Carter, Warlord of Mars by SPI on Ebay a couple of times but have always been beaten out.
I think handled correctly it could be a fun light game with a strong theme. Also good for a light hearted minis campaign I would think. Preferably with home-brewed rules.
Dave Townsend - Aug 4, 2004 9:30 am (#1407 Total: 1429)
SPI's game is anything but a fun light game. Actually, it is reasonably fun, but it's overwrought, as you might expect from SPI. There's just a few too many tables and procedures. It also suffers (IMO) from using counters without cards, so it's a bit less accessible than War of the Ring or Freedom in the Galaxy.
I suspect that creative guys (such as our host) would do a much better job with this than I could. (hint, hint)
James McCann - Aug 4, 2004 9:40 am (#1408 Total: 1429)
I am not surprised. Cards are a good idea. It would be good to have some sim aspects (that is what we like) along with strong storytelling and atmosphere. Dealing with a lot of dice and tables seems very bad. Instead, you could have event cards. Keep the whole thing light, like a Euro rather than a wargame. Probably even lighter than say Mare Nostrum.
Doesn't the SPI game have a mechanism where each player is another player's character's nemesis as well as a character? Nice mechanic, might be worth keeping.
One thing that seems like it would be hard to simulate is combat. For some reason, despite the presence of flying vehicles and radium rifles, swords remain a viable weapon. How do you simulate that?
James McCann - Aug 4, 2004 9:47 am (#1409 Total: 1429)
2 1/2 days left at this job
what are they going to do, fire me? So here are some ideas, just brainstorming.
Scope of game: strategic, but with man to man combat and rescuing of damsels (preferably princesses). What are the races, red, white, pirates of something?
Components: Gotta have little airships, maybe thoats and humans and what nots, or else little tokens, not counters.
Barsoom: Map of all of Mars - point to point or area? Probably not hexes.
Combat: buckets o' dice system, simple quick battle mat tactical displays
Palaces: attractive tiles get dealt out w/ the different configurations, combat takes place on them. I remember an old Dragon article about generating Barsoomian palaces, I wonder if I still have it.
Character cards - or do you roll characters? is rolling characters too fiddly for Euro players? Think of good mechanism for this, perhaps numbered chits w/ little pictures on them.
Event cards:
Asset cards
Walter O'Hara - Aug 4, 2004 10:50 am (#1410 Total: 1429)
My stab at it-- a John Carter game
James M.
You are essentially recreating the SPI game with that approach, though I'm certain it wouldn't take much to simplify the game using similar components (if not the same ones). "Overwrought" is the perfect adjective to describe a game that tries to do five things at once, none of which are particularly outstanding, though some are fun.
I like the dueling cards, I like the "plot development" cards and some elements of the large scale campaign game. I hate the graphic approach, the way everything seems so disconnected, and the internal maps they use for a generic game approach.
What would I do differently?
Why not make it a total card game?
You could retain the "Generic quest" aspect of things by having mission cards (straight out of the book), plot development cards ("a dastardly trick!" "the tables are turned!" etc.) -- these would and SHOULD neccessitate fighting at some level, fencing, troop fighting, air ship combat and etc. You bring in fencing, shooting, leading troops and etc... the stuff of the books distilled.
You would need:
Character Cards (John Carter, Tar Tarkis, Dejah Thoris, etc.)
Villain Cards (chief bad guys from the stories)
Troop Cards (Red Martians, Yellow Martians, Green Martians, synthetic men)
Location Cards
Combat Cards (fencing, fighting, and airship combat cards all on the same card)
Plot Cards (each one with a victory point total)
The sequence would be
Select characters
Play a plot
Add 3 developments (more for longer games)
Move through plot developments (fighting and wenching as you go)
Play the denouement
Resolve victory points.
That's a lot of cards, but I don't see much else in the component mix.
Walt
Dave Townsend - Aug 4, 2004 11:08 am (#1411 Total: 1429)
All cards was what I was hoping for, just because I'm biased these days towards easy stuff that my 10- and 8-year olds can handle.
How many decks would there be? Do you envision Character / Villain / Troop / Location / Combat / Plot as separate decks, or all shuffled together?
And of course you can make Bad Things happen to the other players, right? You'd want to avoid simultaneous solitaire, I'd think.
Walter O'Hara - Aug 4, 2004 12:06 pm (#1412 Total: 1429)
Ponder ponder ponder.
I had to go out and get a vanilla milkshake to ponder this. Actually, it's an upset tummy that I'm pondering, but the panacea works in either instance.
.Characters would be separate, by neccesity.
.Combat Cards, ditto.
.STORY cards (I hate to use "Quests... too D&D-like") are separate.
.PLOT development cards (complications, enemies, enemy troops, allies, etc.) are all in one big pile.
.and perhaps victory cards (showing an impressive Barsoomian medal from various races) for the campaign version.
Note Bene: this kind of design (extremely random, mapless) means that you should be able to handily "build a story" from these elements even if a critical element appears to be missing, such as a certain villain or location.
Question: Attempt to "build a story" from the elements you have or declare a mulligan rule?
"And of course you can make Bad Things happen to the other players, right? You'd want to avoid simultaneous solitaire, I'd think."
Okay, let me ask you before I attempt an answer. What appeals to you more, a game that has cooperation between simultaneous players (e.g., they are all in an adventure together) or a game where you can negatively affect other players to gain an advantage (e.g. the old "f*ck yer buddy" ploy?)
Walt
Dave Townsend - Aug 4, 2004 12:15 pm (#1413 Total: 1429)
After saying that I want something to play with my kids, I'm bit ashamed to say that I prefer screw-your-neighbor to the lets-cooperate. Plus, if we want the latter, we'll play Knizia's Lord of the Rings.
I'm afraid that I'm better extrapolating from concrete examples than I am seeing the details from high level design. Can you elaborate on what you see with STORY vs PLOT?
(Sorry for the upset stomach. Let me do what I can to take your mind off it.
James McCann - Aug 4, 2004 12:36 pm (#1414 Total: 1429)
Hmmm, I really like maps. Maybe interior maps is too fiddly. But just picture a nice big beautifully painted map of Barsoom, with nice little cities, and armies and characters arrayed across it. Aaaah...
Another idea that just hit me: These things were serials, so set things up w/ cliff hangers, narrow escapes and whatnot: deal out a few plot cards, people work with that for a while, then deal out some more. Try to capture the story arc of these things - tension, resolution.... tension resolution etc.
Maybe have certain cards that the players keep face down to turn up in sticky spots: "miraclously escape certain death" cards.
Walter O'Hara - Aug 4, 2004 12:36 pm (#1415 Total: 1429)
STORY versus PLOT
Okay, taking a stab at it with a much reduced gut-ache.
STORY cards are "Story Arcs" You play that with a character. Think of them as the grand setting in which the adventure takes place, what the main character has to do, and the victory points for completion.
PLOT cards expand stories, but are at the root of it, generic. HOWEVER (and this was the pondering point). Each plot card has a number and symbol associated with it. The symbol could be keyed to geographic locations, or it could be keyed to a particular story arc.
Any OTHER symbol with a card in his hand with a matching symbol to the current player's story arc card may play it ON that player as a form of interrupt. It could be good or bad. It could add plot elements above what the player himself had already set down. In short, it could screw him.
The number is the VPs you get for playing that card on another player.
Heh. heh heh heh... I begin to like the concept.
Walt
James McCann - Aug 4, 2004 12:40 pm (#1416 Total: 1429)
"I hate the graphic approach, the way everything seems so disconnected, and the internal maps they use for a generic game approach. "
Walt, can you elaborate on this? Or will thinking about it make your stomach worse?
James McCann - Aug 4, 2004 12:43 pm (#1417 Total: 1429)
Cooperative vs. Competetive
You could have cooperative and competitive scenarios. You could divvy up the cards differently depending on whether you wanted to play as a team, playing against the system, or want to compete against each other.
If the card combos and game play are rich enough a good thing about this sort of approach is you'd get a solitaire game as well.
Walter O'Hara - Aug 4, 2004 2:56 pm (#1418 Total: 1429)
Okay, here's the Eagle Games "I've got more money than sense to spend on components" approach.
I agree to a point.. a map may be a good tie in with the thematic material and it could be a way to plug in stages to an adventure contained within a story arc. However, I'm not crazy about having a map just to have one. So my approach to a compromise is to steal an idea from Blue versus Grey: have a set of map cards that can build Barsoom. Only certain ones are available at start and you build the world as you complete your story arcs.
Understand this one thing-- I don't consider the John Carter series to be about battles, war, or even sword fighting. It has those things, and sure, they are a major factor in making the series great. But that's not what the books are about-- they are about stories, cliffhangers as James says-- they are about rivalries, human relationships, problem solving... oh, and fighting too. I think the game should take a story telling structure to reflect this, and not be another SPI hex map and card game, or even a rehash of the disjointed John Carter "overwrought mess".
So a map might yet be a good idea... especially as geogaphic distances do fit into the source material rather nicely-- JC and the other heroes were always flitting about on flyers or giant riding beasts, discovering lost lands and such. That works!
Of course, there's yet another deck of cards to add to the component list. However, we might be able to eliminate certain place cards as the map will take care of that.
Now, the revised version...
Miniatures: Assume character cards are replaced by little plastic figures-- a green thark, a tan John Carter, a red Heliumite (but not Dejah T, we'll get to that), a Yellow Prince of Yellow martians, a White Prince of the Thurns, a Black Pirate figure...
Each scenario will dictate whether the game is cooperative, competitive, or either. Each scenario will give map setup instructions.
New Component List:
Map Cards: sufficient to build the entire map of Barsoom front and back, Mercator projection.
Story Arcs: Each Arc has a symbol on it. Arcs have instructions, written like so: "Start in Helium. End at Gathol. Rescue Llana from Prince Khalis at his Citadel".
Plot Cards: Allies, Enemies. Weapons. Transport. Enemy Troops of all sorts. Events. Treachery Cards.
Combat Cards: Cards are trifurcated (printed in three sections. One is Troop handling, one is Sword Fighting, and the other is Ship to Ship Combat).
Victory Cars: Fictional Barsoomian medals printed on the card that you take as a trophy when certain point thresholds are met for your character.
Summary cards for all major characters: mentioning their hit points, special abilities and bonuses.
AT START
Game prep. Read the scenario. Build the map to the point mentioned in the scenario, leave the rest of the map cards in a pile. Shuffle the combat cards and place in another pile. Shuffle PLOT cards in a fianl pile.
Select Character Process. Select Story Arc process. Place the Story card horizontally in front of you. Draw a hand of five plot cards. Lay out three plot cards in a row. These must involve encotners of some sort in order to make sense. Lay out any bonus weapons, transport, etc. above your story arc. Any enemies to the left of the arc card, any allies to the right.
During your turn, you can do one of these:
Draw up to Five Plot cards Move (on foot, on a woolah, or in an airboat... what you pick determines how far you go). Play an attack on another player. Trigger an event and resolve it.
Continue around table.
Walt
Walter O'Hara - Aug 4, 2004 3:09 pm (#1419 Total: 1429)
"Walt, can you elaborate on this? Or will thinking about it make your stomach worse?"
Yes. John Carter (SPI version) has a series of somewhat interesting gamettes all tied together in an extremely complex fashion that still looks disjointed and patched together.
There's a semi-RPG, John Carpenter and his pals moving from place to place getting into horrible adventures. There's also an army game of sorts, resovled by cards. There's a dueling sub-game that reolves combat. There are generic maps included on the sheet for Generic evil strongholds,jail, and etc.
They threw in everhting but the kitchen sink, but in process made it almost unplayable. It's hard to keep track of how it all fits together.
Walt
James McCann - Aug 4, 2004 10:20 pm (#1427 Total: 1429)
I'm with you except on the map...
I can't get past the lack of a big beautifully executed map. Helium was always located wherever Helium was located as was the south pole and other spots, so I can think of no reason to have the overall Barsoom map vary. And there is a significant military aspect to the works which requires some kind of map so I just can't see not having it although it may not play into every scenario.
On the other hand I have no problem with tactical displays varying and being generated by cards, including an exploration kind of theme with the map being generated during play in some scenarios. In fact this could result in great replay value as scenarios (or plots or subplots) could be carried out on terrain that changes from one play to the next. Magic Realm shows that this can add a great deal of interest.
At the library this evening I looked at a book of lit crit on ERB (can you believe such crap is written? and at taxpayer expense no doubt) and a bio of ERB. I did not realize he lived in Pocatello ID for a time, which is 50ish miles from me, running some kind of bookstore/ magazine stand. Perhaps I'll stop there on my way to Seattle this Saturday and see if I can locate his old shop... or perhaps not, I am sure it is torn down.
Walter O'Hara - Aug 5, 2004 6:30 am (#1428 Total: 1429)
A Map of Barsoom
James, I understand the temptation, but you have to ask yourself, "Self, do I want to give the players perfect information about geography at the start of the game?" (then you might ask yourself why you're having such an odd internal monologue) Remember, The source material is about exploration, to some extent. Each story in the series introduces us to new landscapes and new cities. Are you willing to abandon that aspect of the game to have a map?
Me, I think I could live with the map building aspect of the game, Richard (Berg)'s Medieval did a bang-up job making a map of Europe using cards.. not just as eye candy but an integral part of the design, and I think a hypothetical Barsoom game could do the same thing.
I have attached a couple of fan art examples of what some artists think the map of Barsoom should look like. In addition, here is a link to the "Map of Barsoom" graphic in the excellent Barsoom glossary provided by Erblist.
http://www.erblist.com/abg/maps.html
Erblist, by the way, is one of those fan-tended compendiums (a combination of a Blog, a zine, and a Wikki in some respects) that I would trust as a very decent source for things Burroughsian.
Walt
Attachments: barsoom_large.gif
Modern_Barsoom.jpg
Walter O'Hara - Aug 5, 2004 6:35 am (#1429 Total: 1429)
ErbAtlas
Here's a site I hadn't stumbled on before, and it's a doozy. ERBAtlas is a site dedicated SOLEY to the depiction of the worlds of Edgar Rice Burroughs in map form. It's a veritable gold mine for the purposes of the discussion at hand.
http://erbatlas.virtualave.net/index.shtml
FIRST ARCHIVE ENDS
Project One: Balloon Race Game